ListMailPRO Email Marketing Software Forums
ListMailPRO Email Marketing Software Forums => General Help & How-To => Topic started by: don1 on March 05, 2006, 09:42:09 am
-
Hi Everyone,
At this point what hosting company seems to be the best fit for ListMail. "My list" at this time does NOT exceed 2000 users...But I want to be ready as the user list grows. These are the main factors that I am determining my decision on:
1) Reliability
2) Price
3) Email Limit Per Hour
4) Email Limit Per 24hour period
Anybody want to add anything or have any suggestions...
Thanks,
Don
-
Don,
I haven't found a large reliable and reputable host that is willing to send bulk email. What may be best is to get your own managed or unmanaged dedicated 'root' server such as from 1&1 (http://hrefs.com/1and1). Your own server has the added benefit of being able to host unlimited domains of your own and also run web sites for your family, friends, or clients. I do accept a number of clients for hosting on a few of my own dedicated servers, but haven't come up with a solid pricing policy yet. Generally I'll let you email up to 25,000 users once or even twice per day for $15/mo. 100,000 with the same restrictions I would do for $30. I come up with these figures every time I talk about it... right now I'm not really serious about public hosting, but let me know if you need me. ;)
Regards, DW
-
Has anyone tried this company for ListMail?
http://www.fastmail.fm/
Look at the the "Enhanced" package, would this work for ListMail? I am not sure...what do you think? Any feedback?
Thanks!
~Don
-
Hi DW,
Generally I'll let you email up to 25,000 users once or even twice per day for $15/mo. 100,000 with the same restrictions I would do for $30
This still has me intrigued, can you please tell me a little more about your services with this, I have 250,000 subscribers (the zipped mysql dump is 14MB, I backup every night so need space for that) I need space for storing the raw Mysql database which is quite large, and ability to email up to 100,000/day...
One thing I wonder about the most - I'm looking for some real 'benchmark numbers'? How fast are your mailings? As you know I have to use 'throttled mailing' because I found if I did not it reduced the number of emails delivered AND it reduced the ability of the user to Unsubscribe using the standard LMP unsub links...
How fast could I email 25,000 subscribers? And, if it is unthrottled, have you done testing to make sure the same number of Subscribers receive their email properly? How are you able to maintain such large numbers on your own server - is this your own box, or are you reseller? I know that you may not want to answer that - but if I'm looking for reliablity, speed, and price - I need to have some numbers to compare to.... for example how would running with you compare to running my own server (or letting you manage one) at 1&1?
Also, what about checking things like MX issues, see my last post about the problems I just discovered with Yahoo subscribers not receiving their email because of 'an MX issue'! I need to know if that is watched regularly, or if the mail server is reset often, and how frequently, etc, etc....
Thanks for your answers....
Don:
Has anyone tried this company for ListMail?
http://www.fastmail.fm/
That may work for you, but it won't for me, as the limit on emails/hour is only 2,000, with large lists - that would take FOREVER....
The pricing is amazing though, but that always leaves me suspect too... such as how frequently they watch the servers? 24 hours, or just during business hours?
-
Brett,
I know this host wouldn't work for a lot of people such as yourself...in fact I may be starting a different company which I will need more "capacity"...but for the time, I just need reliability for a few thousand emails a day at most.
I am curious how DW will answer your questions. If DW's servers are tuned to work with ListMail (is what I suspect) than just for the sake of simplicity, his service would seem great. And any issues that may arise could be easily looked at by him personally :-).
Thanks for the reply!
~Don
-
Hi Don,
I know this host wouldn't work for a lot of people such as yourself...in fact I may be starting a different company which I will need more "capacity"...but for the time, I just need reliability for a few thousand emails a day at most.
Yes, you're right this is an excellent opportunity for someone only wanting to run a few thousand subscribers - does it work though? Maybe you should be the 'guinea pig' and try it out - report back what you find... ok?
I am curious how DW will answer your questions.
I am too - DW where are you on the answers? I'm considering it... though I'm also looking at some other alternative options...
-
Hi guys,
Brett, unfortunately I can't accomodate a list of 250,000 at this time. My most recent server is too full for this. Also, my multiple-IP patch provider has quadrupled his prices, so I don't know where I am with that (for a new server). I will likely be trying to develop my own patch for Plesk/qmail for this (I'm working on it (http://forum.swsoft.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=148664#post148664)) I would (have) likely charge(d) ~$45/mo for 200,000 emails per day.
In light of the multiple IP patch issue I don't know when I will be ready to offer large-scale hosting again.. :(
One thing I wonder about the most - I'm looking for some real 'benchmark numbers'? How fast are your mailings? How fast could I email 25,000 subscribers? And, if it is unthrottled, have you done testing to make sure the same number of Subscribers receive their email properly?
Not really... I suspect what might be happening to you is temporary or speed-based blocking is getting in the way. Furthermore, the remove issues were I believe caused by the "optimize table" statements I was using in rem.php which have since been removed. If you continue to have troubles with remove when not throttling it might indicate a problem with the DB structure or just too much load for the server.
How are you able to maintain such large numbers on your own server - is this your own box, or are you reseller?
I get all my servers (and domains) from 1&1 (http://hrefs.com/1and1) now. They have cheap prices and excellent services.
how would running with you compare to running my own server (or letting you manage one) at 1&1?
With me you benefit with price and the fact that you don't have to monitor and manage your own server. The main drawback is that it is a shared server, with other clients sending email from the same IP address(es). Running your own server lets you set up unlimited domains and puts you in full control of your IP address and, hence, any blocking / complaints that happen against your server will only be caused by your mailings and not other users'.
Also, what about checking things like MX issues, see my last post about the problems I just discovered with Yahoo subscribers not receiving their email because of 'an MX issue'! I need to know if that is watched regularly, or if the mail server is reset often, and how frequently, etc, etc....
I generally look at the server within a few hours when/if clients report troubles or sooner if I am notified by cell phone (when any server services go down).
----
Don, if you will be emailing just a few thousand per day I might again be able to recommend DreamHost (http://listmailpro.com/dreamhost). While a number of my clients have been 'shut down without warning' because they emailed tens of thousands of users per day, some have been reinstated with higher per-day email limits up to several thousand. Their policy is that all users must have "double opted-in". I recommend contacting their tech support to see if you can get an account that will accomodate your list(s). I could also offer hosting for a reduced rate of about $10/mo for such a list.
Regards, DW
-
Don, if you will be emailing just a few thousand per day I might again be able to recommend DreamHost. While a number of my clients have been 'shut down without warning' because they emailed tens of thousands of users per day, some have been reinstated with higher per-day email limits up to several thousand. Their policy is that all users must have "double opted-in". I recommend contacting their tech support to see if you can get an account that will accomodate your list(s). I could also offer hosting for a reduced rate of about $10/mo for such a list.
Dean,
Since I already use DreamHost, I will try moving "ListMail" to them and see what my results are. I will keep you up to date with the results.
Thanks,
Don
-
Hi DW, Don,
With me you benefit with price and the fact that you don't have to monitor and manage your own server. The main drawback is that it is a shared server, with other clients sending email from the same IP address(es). Running your own server lets you set up unlimited domains and puts you in full control of your IP address and, hence, any blocking / complaints that happen against your server will only be caused by your mailings and not other users'
Please let me know how much you would charge to setup LMP on a server at 1&1 if I bought my own server there?
Here's what I'm looking at, is that server configured when you get it? Is PHP, Perl, MySQL and other tools available on the server?
I have very specific needs, Perl, PHP, MySQL, etc... and need to be able to run them the way I want... so I'm asking - DOES 1&1 already set that all up for you - or is the user responsible for it? If the user is, I'm asking how much you would charge DW to set it up??
Also, I want to know one thing-
Not really... I suspect what might be happening to you is temporary or speed-based blocking is getting in the way. Furthermore, the remove issues were I believe caused by the "optimize table" statements I was using in rem.php which have since been removed. If you continue to have troubles with remove when not throttling it might indicate a problem with the DB structure or just too much load for the server
Most likely it's the load on the server, I removed the "optimize table" command myself and it still had problems...
SO - tell me this, HOW MANY Emails per HOUR could I send using LMP on my own server at 1&1 if I was the only user of that server? 20,000 or 30,000/hour?
AND, if that's the case, what is the reliability of the BOUNCE and LINK Tracking with that many emails - this is what I found with my Throttle testing, I had to leave it in so 1.) People could get their email, and 2.) so that users clicking on links in the Email would get a responsive server - in other words IF YOU SEND OUT 30,000 Emails/hour, what's that 500/minute = 8.33/second! Do you see how that many emails being sent would hinder/slow down LMP on the Server end, if 10 people clicked at the SAME SECOND - it would NOT be able to handle those clicks... but having throttling in place allows it...
So, my question then, HOW do other email servers handle it, the big names, do they have HUGE, HUGE server power, I suspect they do... and without that, I can't see LMP handling the load, even with 20,000-30,000 an hour, that is why I suggest throttling be used, and that you put it in the Config section of LMP - let the user turn it off/on if they want, but put it in there...
Don:
Since I already use DreamHost, I will try moving "ListMail" to them and see what my results are. I will keep you up to date with the results.
Let us know what you find... I'm curious...
-
I use two machines for this and have no problems.... The SMTP server is all by itself, then you have the Web Server running MySQL and handling all incoming mail including the bounce.cgi, etc....
The load on the web server while mailing to my list of 150K stays at around 1-2, which is nothing.... the load on the mail server varies from 5-10 or so, which still isn't a whole lot....
I average 40-60K per hour...
I'd say all could be handled on one HIGH END machine with no problems as long as they are configured properly. What I notice that affects it most is all the incoming connections for mail. I set Sendmail to limit this and it's no problem.... dunno if qmail can limit incoming connections, proly can I'd think.
-
The multiple IP patch guy has quadrupled his prices and therefore I'm seeking another solution for my next server and am unable to offer hosting for large lists (>~5000) at this time. Of course, some of my clients send hundreds of thousands of emails from a single IP with fair success... but I would really like to provide IP rotation on my servers. I'm going to try to develop a patch or accomplish it with an existing one before getting my next server.
I set up Plesk/1&1 (http://listmailpro.com/1and1) servers with backup, multiple IP (well, I used to and hope to be able to again soon), email/MySQL optimization and more for $300, with ongoing management (security patches, monitoring with cell phone notification, dealing with problems, server additions, etc) for $35/mo.
1&1 servers come with Plesk (demo at plesk.com) which is relatively easy to manage if you have some Linux experience or a passion to learn. There are many Plesk-related forums available such as at http://forum.swsoft.com or http://forum.ev1servers.net. I would also be willing to help out from time to time via this forum to further my own understanding.
I have very specific needs, Perl, PHP, MySQL, etc... and need to be able to run them the way I want...
On a dedicated server you can do anything you want. Plesk comes with a lot of bells an whistles... It's really easy to add sites to the server, set up FTP, email accounts, databases. etc. MySQL, PHP, Perl, etc. is all there by default and works for the majority of available scripts.
DOES 1&1 already set that all up for you - or is the user responsible for it?
On managed servers 1&1 will help you with anything you need. They will perform security updates, modifications/optimization as necessary, etc. but I'm not sure about a daily backup script. On unmanaged servers you are the administrator and are fully responsible for keeping it running. If the hard drive explodes you are responsbile for restoring the server from a backup. If you happen to accidentally run a command which deletes every file on the server (rm -rf /*) you will suffer the consequences and again have to restore or reset the server. 1&1 provides a number of useful services such as automated server re-image (base install) and booting into a rescue system (like booting from a floppy disk) should your server become unbootable so you can fix the problem or at least recover your most recent data. The first few times I had to restore servers it was a huge learning experience and took me 6 hours or more... now I've got it down to about an hour.
SO - tell me this, HOW MANY Emails per HOUR could I send using LMP on my own server at 1&1 if I was the only user of that server? 20,000 or 30,000/hour?
I estimate about 750,000 per day with the optimizations mentioned in this forum. That equates to 31250/hr.
if 10 people clicked at the SAME SECOND - it would NOT be able to handle those clicks... but having throttling in place allows it...
I guess it depends on the server. I would think that most servers have a default web and/or MySQL connection limit of 255. I ran out of MySQL connections when I posted a hot article on my blog (http://dwtips.com/2006/06/17/how-to-speed-up-pdf-loading-with-adobe-acrobat/) (2 Users Online ∙ Most ever was 263 on 18th June 2006, 18:16) but increased the connection limit (and traffic has gone down..) and haven't had a problem since.
You should only have problems if your server reaches such a limit. Therefore I would say your existing server is probably hosting a lot of, maybe too many, high-traffic web sites.
-
Hi DW,
Thanks for the info, I'll consider the dedicated server, most likely I would go for Managed as it's only $20/month more, but I would for sure want you to set it up...
Regarding this:
guess it depends on the server. I would think that most servers have a default web and/or MySQL connection limit of 255. I ran out of MySQL connections when I posted a hot article on my blog
Are you referring to shared servers? I guess you mean that with dedicated you can increase the limits to a higher level - allowing much more traffic, is that right?
That is probably why I have to throttle, with the shared server handling all of the traffic, there's bound to be slowdowns/bottlenecks.
but I would really like to provide IP rotation on my servers. I'm going to try to develop a patch or accomplish it with an existing one before getting my next server.
Couldn't you hire someone on Elance to write that patch for you? Really quadrupled, well there must be a market there for it?
Keep up what you're doing... let us all know if you are able to offer hosting for largers lists.
-
Brett,
Thanks for the info, I'll consider the dedicated server, most likely I would go for Managed as it's only $20/month more, but I would for sure want you to set it up...
That's the thing. I don't think you get direct access to the server when you go with managed, but I may be wrong. If you don't get access all I can do is recommend qmail (http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=48.0) and MySQL optimization (http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=918.0), which you can forward to 1&1 tech support/server management.
I guess you mean that with dedicated you can increase the limits to a higher level - allowing much more traffic, is that right?
I don't have a lot of experience with high-traffic sites so I don't know the upper connection limits for apache (web server) or MySQLd (mysql server).
For MySQL, depending on the server's version, you'd enter something like this in /etc/my.cnf:
set-variable=max_connections=500
For apache you'd enter something like this in /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf
# MaxClients: maximum number of server processes allowed to start
MaxClients 256
That is probably why I have to throttle, with the shared server handling all of the traffic, there's bound to be slowdowns/bottlenecks.
Depending on the host they could be placing too many users on single server. As learned by my recent experience, even a single high-traffic site can monopolize an entire server's worth of connections. With your very large amount of email, and considering your experience on that host/server so far, I think your own dedicated server or requesting placement on a less-busy server at your web host would be the best way to go.
Will try to remember to update this thread when I finally get my next server up and can again accept large clients!
Regards
-
Hi DW,
Ok, I knew 1&1 had to be expensive (they're blowing all that money on advertising), check this dedicated server:
http://www.serverpronto.com
Also, it mentions cPanel, I'm familiar with Plesk, is this the same thing, and IS it really required to run a simple LMP hosted mailer? I kind of think I could do without it, once I'm setup and running, I don't need a Control Panel, all I'm going to do is login and check a few files (FTP), and maybe adjust CRONTAB (can do that from command line)...
What do you think? Anyone?
-
I don't know about these people, I'd say try it and see how it works for you.
As for control panels, LOL... I've NEVER used any kind of control panel... NEVER EVER!!!!
I run my own linux servers on my own T-1 line and I simply SSH into the box and do what ever I need to...
Control panels are kind of nice though, don't get me wrong. For the normal user I'd say they are probably wonderful, but personally, i'd rather just log in and do what I need to....
-
The best part about control panel software such as Plesk or CPanel is that it's easy to set up client domains complete with their own control panel access. Its easy to set up hosting for your clients, friends, family, etc. so you can use revenue from that to pay for your server and essentially host any number of your own domains free of charge.
CPanel is good - it supports ListMail 100%. I had a look at the server company you mentioned, Brett. It seems good, but there are a number of costs for things that are different than 1&1. For example, additional IPs are $10 one time. At 1&1 they're $1/mo. 1&1 provides 80GB of backup space you can access via FTP (or automated command-line FTP, via a backup script) to backup your data off-site. The provider you mentioned does not seem to have this, so you would need to arrange for off-site backup elsewhere. This can be crucial in recovering your server after a disaster such as hard drive explosion, etc. Apart from that they seem like a pretty good deal.
Regards
-
Hi Mike, Don, DW,
I don't know about these people, I'd say try it and see how it works for you.
I see they were rated TOP 10 for Dedicated Servers, this is impressive. I believe their pricing is great too, I might try them.
I don't get it though, I found another host here (offering what they call 'semi-dedicated':
http://www.resellerspanel.com/dedicated_servers/semi_dedicated/
With there services the pricing is still $60/month, with 70,000 MySQL queries/hour - Is that fast enough / good enough for high performance mailing, what do you see with yours Mike, how many queries/hour do you run at with all that mail going out?
I believe their service comes with a control panel - here's what they say about the service of their 'semi-dedicated':
There will be no more than 6 shared hosting accounts on a single server, thus each account will be able to use up to 20% CPU and up to 90 000 MySQL queries per hour.
They also claim: 2.5 GBits network connectivity, while over at ServerPronto with their dedicated servers they are claiming 100Mbps Connection, quite a difference here - almost like resellerspanel.com gives you a direct connection to a backbone, while ServerPronto doesn't - that would affect performance of clicks/traffic coming in and out - right?
So, the big question, which of these two appears to be the better deal for testing out a dedicated server on? Any thoughts/suggestions?
As for control panels, LOL... I've NEVER used any kind of control panel... NEVER EVER!!!!
Sure, I can run on command line, but I'd be a little worried, I've never setup my own host direct from a command line, I woudl feel more comfortable with a Control Panel!
I run my own linux servers on my own T-1 line and I simply SSH into the box and do what ever I need to...
Yeah, it sounds like you're right on a T-1 line, more like the resellerspanel.com, while the ServerPront would not be direct like that... I wonder what the performance difference would be?
Let me know what you all think....
-
Hey here are my thoughts:
On the amount of SQl queries per hour... Dean would probably be a bit more able to answer that, as I am not sure even how to monitor that... I'd guess if i'm doing 50K emails per hour, then there'd at least be 100K or 150K or so queries per hour, especially if I am using personalization in the messages...
As far as the connectivity... What they are saying when they say 2.5gbits is probably that is what they have in their datacenter, not what is available to you... For the 100Mbps, that is possibly just a way of saying that's what kind of ethernet adapter you are on, but not necessarily the speed available to you. I would guess this is like comparing apples to oranges, and you'd have to find out a bit more to know anything useful. They are both probably on a 100Mbps connection for the machine you would get. What matters mostly in my opinion would be at where they are on capacity. IE> If one is running at 20% capacity, then there is plenty of speed for you... This probably won't be an issue for you honestly if they are decent places. This is my opinion I could be wrong.
As for using a control panel, yea for most I'd probably suggest it... Heck if I had a good free one to use I might even also, then just use command line if needed...
As for which is the best deal to try...... Drum roll Please... Dunno, lol. I'd bet they would both be just fine, however, personally I wouldn't go with Semi-Dedicated. Get the Dedicated one.
-
Sorry, I'm not really sure exactly how many SQL queries are executed... with the processing of message codes I suppose it could be up to dozens per message. ! I cannot recommend a host with limits on # of queries.
Regards
-
DW,
Sorry, I'm not really sure exactly how many SQL queries are executed... with the processing of message codes I suppose it could be up to dozens per message. ! I cannot recommend a host with limits on # of queries.
Can you tell me who you use as a host? Contact me directly by email/personal message if you like, I'm having a hard time determining which host is going to be able to fulfill my requirements for running LMP efficiently? I'd like to be able to throw on a few other websites in the webspace, but my main concern is having LMP run efficiently so I can shoot out 30,000 messages/hour or so.
-
I now prefer to use 1&1 (http://listmailpro.com/1and1) unmanaged servers but also have a couple at http://ev1servers.net. I am sure there are a lot of good providers. I'm a big fan of Plesk management software.
Regards
-
Hi DW,
I'm a big fan of Plesk management software
Ok, I remember that part about 1&1, is Cpanel any worse then Plesk, and do your accounts at 1&1 or at EV1 run with procmail?
I think we talked about this before, but those servers are 'unmanaged', doesn't that mean any crash requires me to SSH to the host and re-start the system, etc?
Secondly is there any chance you're going to get that multi-IP patch done and be able to offer this again: likely charge(d) ~$45/mo for 200,000 emails per day.
?
I really need a high powered server and can't really afford $100/month for it... perhaps if I can re-sell some of the space to my own clients - how many people do you have onboard, just curious? Our markets are way different, I have people interested in my field but plan to try to interest some of them in independent marketing/sales to achieve their life purpose, doing that would require internet business/hosting....
Have you looked at that 'resellerspanel' website, they claim they handle everything for you, you just send the customers... anyway, I'm guessing that my be a way to start... but for now I need a way to send 20,000-30,000 hour so I can get out multiple messages/day without having to wait around 8-9 hours for the throttled Queue Send to complete!
-
Hi DW,
Back to this, I'm considering the 1&1 servers, apparently they are faster (connection) than other hosts, I'll probably run most of the bandwidth/disk space with my own mailer site...
I'd like to make a little of my monthly fee back, you mention this: Your own server has the added benefit of being able to host unlimited domains of your own and also run web sites for your family, friends, or clients. I
How in the world do you handle/track the billing for that? I've heard of host billing packages that cost 1,000's of dollars... just wondering how you do it? I'm not interested in taking 10-20 hours setting up billing pages, do you have something you would consider selling that is already setup?
Let me know...
-
Hey Brett,
I'm currently handling billing manually using, primarily, PayPal's recurring/subscription system. It's free, and I can withdraw my profits directly from an ATM near me. If my client(s) can't use PayPal I set them up with a recurring subscription at 2CheckOut.com the proceeds of which are directly deposited into my bank account every Thursday.
It's not a lot of work even with upwards of 30 clients. Once signed up you will only need to contact them if their subscription is cancelled without warning, which is rare.
To make things easier you might want to use a cheap & popular billing system such as aMemberPro (http://listmailpro.com/amember)
Regarding your post before last:
Ok, I remember that part about 1&1, is Cpanel any worse then Plesk, and do your accounts at 1&1 or at EV1 run with procmail?
I'd say CPanel is one of the few worthy alternatives to my favourite, Plesk. CPanel is full-featured and easy-to-use for your clients via their control panel, however, the server administration panel IS a little confusing and complex IMHO.
I think we talked about this before, but those servers are 'unmanaged', doesn't that mean any crash requires me to SSH to the host and re-start the system, etc?
Yes, with an unmanaged server you are fully responsible. If your server hard drive explodes you had better hope you have proper backups and know how to re-image the server (easy via 1&1 control panel) and then recover and restore your Plesk/hosting/client data from backup (fairly easy via SSH).
Secondly is there any chance you're going to get that multi-IP patch done and be able to offer this again:
I think there's a good chance - I just can't say when. :(
I really need a high powered server and can't really afford $100/month for it... perhaps if I can re-sell some of the space to my own clients - how many people do you have onboard, just curious?
I don't overload my servers to keep performance up. Just guessing, I have about 30 clients with 40+ domains across 3 servers.
Regards
-
Web hosts are being analyzed and reviewed - please post your recent experience if your host is not listed already!
Here's the post:
Email Web Hosting Review (http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=1699.0)
Regards