ListMail interface expansion / internationalization

[DW]

The ListMail interface in it's current form looks good.  It looks real good.  It is nice and compact and easy to navigate and yet, it is also very limited. One major issue is that the page is fixed width as are many buttons and options.  This prevents us from allowing other languages or and adding some new features because it just wouldn't look right.

Here's what I propose:

A page header, left menu, body and footer.

The header would contain the logo and big bold letters showing the current page (as it is now). Optionally, other information could be shown in the header such as the current time.

The left menu would be "nowrap", as wide as it's longest element, with one option per line.  Section headers and ALL sub pages could be shown in this menu, making every feature just a click or two away.

eg:

Code: [Select]

Configuration
 - Backup & Restore
 - Databases

List Settings
 - Add List
 - Custom HTML
 - Signup Forms
The body would list all the options for each page line by line and not side by side and crammed together as it is now.

The design would be much simpler and would allow for easy expansion of a number of features that might take advantage of the page width such as the User database page, Quick load feature, etc.

Furthermore, ListMail's CSS style sheet needs to be rewritten, and what better time than when redoing the layout.  Done right this could provide for themes with templates or at least the option to change colors, fonts, message box widths and more.

I think a layout change is needed for ListMailPRO - do you?

Please take the time to vote.

Regards and thanks

[DW]

The poll has been canceled because I've already started work on this.

The original ListMail CSS design style sheet is a disaster, as is the HTML design.  There are excessive tables, images used for spacing, some pages had borders, others didn't where they should, etc.

This is now being improved.  The screen is being made "100%" wide with a definable left menu width.  No other buttons will be fixed width.  There will be clear styles for all of the table sections, margins, etc.  This will give be 100% fluidity to the ListMail interface - padding, fonts, etc. are all standardized and set in as few CSS definitions as possible.

A wider screen and standardized interface makes it easier for us to implement new features.  We will likely allow you to customize your CSS style. These changes will provide the space for more features and  information and will enable eventual internationalization of ListMail.

The original compactness and style of ListMail is being used as a basis for the new design.  I've started work on it already and it looks very similar, but even better.

Stay tuned

[mike2]

I personally would be happy with some real minor things that have been discussed before, like:

1.  Check boxes for selecting multiple users on the database page for an action.

2.  Not taking so long to load the user database page when you have a big list...  my list of 150k makes it take a while, I think you figured this was due to the page selection box or something....

3.  Other simple things that would make a huge difference...  Man I wish Brett were still here for this part... LOL   I'm not talking about huge changes like ad tracking, etc, etc....  Just the minor ones that seem simple yet tidy and effective.

[DW]

Mike, all of these will be addressed with the new changes.  Checkboxes are already practically finished.  Hang in there.

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi Mike,

Man I wish Brett were still here for this part... LOL I'm not talking about huge changes like ad tracking, etc, etc.... Just the minor ones that seem simple yet tidy and effective.

I'm still here...  and I agree with you, just simple changes are fine, I don't care that tables are used, so what...  as you ALL KNOW, what I want are better (existent) STATS, and ClickTracking, and many others...  

Surprise me DW, do anything I suggested (probably about 1 year ago now)...

Don't bother with all the minor things like TABLES, where are you coming up with this as a problem?  Who cares, people that use this software want better statistics, delivery, unsubscribe, tracking, and a host of other things...  

Thanks for the work so far, but I think it shows the problem here when you post a POLL to ask for others requests, and then you start working on it before even letting people answer the poll...

Anyway, good luck.

[DW]

ListMail's slick appearance was very important to me in it's inception, but I didn't have the skills I do now. Working with my 2002 design creating new pages in ListMail was a huge and very confusing chore.  There was no standard format whatsoever;  I was spending a lot of time lining things up "by the pixel" (using a 1x1 transparent .gif - didn't they stop doing this in the 90s?).  There are sometimes hundreds of these transparent .gifs on a page;  Features were cancelled because they wouldn't "fit" on a page;  Certain pages had borders and others, where they logically should have, did not; I wasn't sure which font was where, etc.

Widening the interface will give us room to provide the many features and stats you desire.  It should also make ListMail pages load a little faster. Most importantly it will allow me to "understand" the ListMail code better.  90% of a programmers time is spent understanding the code.  This change will make it far easier for me to understand ListMail and continue adding to it.

I am working on this all week and expect your link tracking improvements to come shortly after.  I apologize things haven't progressed as quickly as you, I and others would like.  I'm young, still working on stabilizing my life. A number of unexpected things held me back last year.  I'm always brainstorming new business ideas that need to be explored, increasing my wisdom and experience.  I can only look forward!

Regards

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi DW,

I'm young, still working on stabilizing my life. A number of unexpected things held me back last year.

I see, I know about that myself... hang in there, it's not easy... you are making some progress - but I'd like to see more of an acceptance by you that your 'power users' (mike, myself and a handful of others) might know more about what features/innovations would really help us right now - and tracking down TABLE elements is not one of them - I'm not sure there's a single page in LMP that has hundreds of 1x1 gifs in it, are you ceratin about that?  

Secondly, these little design issues and understanding them has nothing to do with understanding the 'bigger picture' programming issues that have been brought up - (daily stats/bounces/removals per list, a way to track mailings by product: a simple fix I proposed months ago), so I'm not sure where you're getting that walking through design issues helps at alll with coding - believe me - it doesn't - I could spend months playing with my 'design issues', when in the end - a good day of coding can get me much further - ask any programmer - I bet they all answer the same on that one.

I'm always brainstorming new business ideas that need to be explored, increasing my wisdom and experience. I can only look forward!

I know I'm excited to see what your trying out... and I do see promise in Adsense myself - but some of these ideas - I'm not sure they hold water - I've toyed with many such ideas myself - so far I always come back to the 'bread & butter', if it's LMP for you (at least 50% of your income), I'd be putting my money on the 'bread & butter' and that will put 'bread & butter' on the table....  in other words - be wary of trying out too many 'ideas', just find a few good ones and stick with what you're good at, it seems LMP is one of those, I can only imagine how good LMP would be if you only worked on it!

[DW]

I can only imagine how good LMP would be if you only worked on it!

You'll be happy to know I am working on it and the interface changes are going quickly.  I'm improving things as I go, touching on pages I haven't changed in years - almost every feature will be added to or redesigned to be more straightforward.  I'm also cleaning up the code so it's easier to understand and add to.

I think you will like the changes that come from attention-to-detail of a page-by-page update (there are only about 15 in all of ListMail, so it's not -that- huge a chore)

This ListMail update is my passion at the moment.  My latest AdSense experiment is going well, paying off its server more than 3 times over so far (~$15/day).  I'm just waiting for the rest of it to get indexed.  With over 3 million pages this is not easy! (I'm thinking of prioritizing higher-content pages via my auto-generated sitemaps).

For-sale products, of course, have an excellent potential for profit. (This has been my most recent new 'idea')  I've been considering doing a straight sale site with no support such as selling ebooks.  Advertise at 0.03 per click and sell for $20-$50 a pop and there should be some very quick profits there.

Of course, I too feel that ListMail could become my golden goose and appreciate your encouragement.  Designed in 2002, however, it had been a pain to maintain.  Going over everything will jog my memory while allowing me to add new features as I think of them.  After that I'll be going through the long list of suggestions and promises for this update to add a few more.

I'm around for the next 7 hours or so working on it if you want to chat more.

Regards

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi DW,

My latest AdSense experiment is going well, paying off its server more than 3 times over so far (~$15/day). I'm just waiting for the rest of it to get indexed. With over 3 million pages this is not easy! (I'm thinking of prioritizing higher-content pages via my auto-generated sitemaps).

Which one is this, URL please?

Glad to hear that's working for you... straight sales, not sure about that, but maybe.

Keep working on LMP, it's one of the best mailers around - still I'd like to see one huge change for me - and probably others.  I sell about 20-30 products, so people get mad when they receive promotions for something that they have already purchased - I've described this to you before - there's a very easy way to fix this, just allow us to track followups by a 'specific ad campaign' or product, that way if someone bought the next one coming up in the list ,move them ahead to the next one in the sequence...  this is the one where we had our little 'argument', still not sure why....

Anyway, if you're up for doing that, I'd like to see it, and it could help me tremendously, what do you think?  Let me now what it would cost so I can consider it, and PayPal you the $.

[DW]

Brett,

I've been working on LMP every free moment since I last wrote.  Everything is being improved for the next update (2.0?).  So far:

- new style to all pages as I go, style sheet will be modifiable
 + I have decided against showing all "sub pages" in the left menu - the redesign looks VERY much like the old one, it's just wider and cleaner.
- restructured message code editing page code (it was a complete disaster that was very difficult to work on)
- a MySQL database stats/analysis/optimize/repair page.
- backup page redesign within new style + a couple fixes
- message code viewing and editing new style + new options
 + live preview (3s interval) of certain message codes
- more I'm forgetting..  tons to come - I'm very excited to be improving LMP.

One thing I am concerned about being well received is a change in the way all tables are viewed.  No longer will everything be editable with input boxes on the main browsing pages - it's far too clunky.  You will have to click "Edit", which may in fact become a text link instead of a button.  Lines have less height (more information, less scrolling), alternating row colours, etc.  I am open to suggestions such as a "Save & Go Back" button on the edit page to make small edits with the new design easier.  I know this way is better (every single site does it this way) - it's straightforward and fast, and gives more room for expansion, and I know I can make it look good, too.

I still don't quite understand your request.

I sell about 20-30 products, so people get mad when they receive promotions for something that they have already purchased

that way if someone bought the next one coming up in the list, move them ahead to the next one in the sequence...

So you have one followup sequence promoting many products in order - is that right?  You want to specify "key followups" to jump the user ahead to when a sale is made.

What you want to do could be possible already.  Why not use a different list for each product with a separate followup sequence?

Whenever a product is purchased and processed it could check the ListMail database for that email address.  If the user is on the list promoting that product, move them to the end of the sequence, then this "Additional Option" could take effect:

Move users who reach end of followup sequence to list # seq # delay #

Can it be guaranteed that users will only buy products that have previously or are currently being marketed to them?  What happens if they buy something 3 products ahead?

There must be some solution that is not quite as frustrating as what was determined when we first looked at this.

Regards

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi DW,

+ I have decided against showing all "sub pages" in the left menu

I would have to see it to know what you mean - but I kind of like the left menu, I suggest you do Polls to get users opinions - read further in this message, there are some users on this forum that use LMP every day and much more than you do as a user, so keep that in mind - users like us would be able to provide valuable input, but only if you setup the polls and ask for it, and give time for responses.

a MySQL database stats/analysis/optimize/repair page.

Great, this is much needed!

I'm very excited to be improving LMP.

 

Great, but please try to phase this in, with different changes showing up over time, instead of all at once.

You will have to click "Edit",

Good, I don't mind that.

There must be some solution that is not quite as frustrating as what was determined when we first looked at this.

There is no other way, I've tried explaining this before.  When you have 30 products you have to have a method for tracking the followup message to a campaign, that way you can remove (or skip ahead) in the sequence if the user has already been sent that promotion.

I'm not sure why you feel this is frustrating, the solution I proposed is very easy - all that needs to be done is add a Campaign field to the followup.  That way I insert the Campaign ID (whatever I want) the followup, when the user purchases, a user field is used to track which campaigns have resulted in sales by adding the Campaign ID to the User field.  When the Dailymail function is ran, it first updates all users to the next in the sequence, then it looks to see which users are in a Sequence # (with Campaign ID) that matches any Campaign listed in the Users custom field (which shows all campaigns they have made a purchase for).  If it finds a match, it moves the user ahead to the next Followup in the sequence.  It doesn't matter if the user has purchased 20 of the 30 products, because the next time DailyMail runs it moves the user ahead and if it finds that if the user has purchased that product in the sequence it moves them on to the next - I know that this could result in additional days added to the Sequence before the user finally gets to a Followup that they have not purchased - that is fine - I don't care if it takes additional days for the user to get to the next followup that they have not made a purchase for - as long as they are not getting Followups for products they have already purchased.

This solution is the simplest and (least frustrating method) for handling this, please re-read, and see that earlier post I made.  It's simple, would not take much of your coding time and would solve the problem.  Think about it, please.  Also, remember that the method you are proposing will NOT WORK, I know - I'm selling multiple products and using LMP every day - I don't think you have the User Experience using LMP that I and a few others in this forum have - and that's why I would appreciate your attention to this - and I also appreciate that you are asking us for input on colors, etc....  thanks...

[BGSWebDesign]

bump - did you read my last post DW?

[DW]

I did - I've just been extraordinarily busy with some server work.  I'll be continuing work on LMP shortly.  I hope to be able to consider your feature more thoroughly as I get to working on followups.  Thanks for your suggestions and comments.

Regards