DreamHost

[BGSWebDesign]

A lot of hosts do have email limits...  Why not go with DreamHost?  They have no limits and are fully supportive of ListMail for $7.95/mo.

They have requirments that ALL email that is sent for promoting must be verified with IP address/date/time and full reply confirmation.  In my business I have found that does not work, sure I only send to customers who visit the website, but if they request a freebie they are automatically included in my promotions (opted-in automatically), though they receive one confirm email (it does NOT require that they reply to it to continue receiving email), and they can remove themselves at any time I don't fit 'perfectly' into Dreamhost's requirements.  A quick email to them seems they are pretty serious about that and that they could shut me down anytime they wanted to if I didn't fit exactly into their requirements (and it would cost me considerable number of customers).  

I'm looking at their dedicated hosting as that may be an option, but again, only if they loosen up their restrictive requiements on how I promote my business to those who have previously visited my website - I don't see why it's a problem as it's not UCE, the visitors have been to my website to get something free so there is an established contact, it's just that I run a 'opt-out' list: you are automatically opted-in, unless you remove yourself - which is very easy to do, so again I don't see the problem with that... especially on dedicated?  Also I'm up to 120,000 subscribers, can they handle that size, here's a direct quote from a follow up I received from them:

In practice, with most scripts (it
differs depending on the code) you will probably only be able to email a
few hundred people per hour before the script causes problems. As a
general rule, we prefer that customers do not run bulk email processes
under their accounts (we provide tools for this purpose that we can more
closely administrate).

So, the question remains, do you know of people running large lists at Dreamhost and are they accepted?  

I welcome discussion with Dreamhost on what they accept and why on both their shared and on dedicated servers there as the way I run my business is perfectly legal, I only contact those who I have had previous contact with (through registration at my website), this is not outside the bounds of promotion, perhaps they are thinking that this is like someone buying a list, but it's not at all....

Your thoughts DW, others?

[DW]

Brett,

I do not know how many users my clients are running on DreamHost.  I haven't heard of any problems yet.  I'm hopeful that the way ListMail sends to lists, through SMTP, does not run into the limits they speak of.  The problems seem more likely with PHP mail(), where each email opens its own process.

The reason I recommend DreamHost is because I asked them if I should refer more ListMail clients to them.  Of course, the (tech's) reply was "we'll take as many as you can bring us".  I didn't think to check out their policy or dig deeper. :roll:

I'll open up a new support ticket asking for specifics and get back to you.

How large is your list?  If you have over 100k - 150k you should probably get your own dedicated server.

Regards

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi DW,

I'll open up a new support ticket asking for specifics and get back to you.

Ok, thanks, let me know what you find out.

How large is your list? If you have over 100k - 150k you should probably get your own dedicated server.

I have 120K, a dedicated server is a possibility, but only if the restrictions they suggest are not enforced on the dedicated server, as I mentioned I promote to people who visit my website using opt-out policy - they are opted-in automatically and must remove themselves from the list, this has worked fine for almost 8 years now, no complaints.

[DW]

I wrote this to DreamHost:

You may be becoming familiar with my mailing list software, ListMailPro (www.listmailpro.com), as I have several clients with you.  Basically, its newsletter or e-zine management software designed to be used for professional opt-in lists.

I'd like to mention that your services are excellent. Everything we need to perform an installation of ListMail without extra help is supported.  However, to be comfortable referring future clients I need to be clear on your email policy.

ListMail uses SMTP for it's list mailings and uses PHP mail() for welcome and confirmation messages.  SMTP is used for list email to prevent problems with sending too fast to PHP mail(), where each message opens up a new process on the server.  PHP mail() is used for welcome and confirmation messages to prevent too many connections to the SMTP server in the event of a flood of signups.

I understand there are problems with sending through PHP mail() too fast, because of too many processes.  With SMTP, everything is sent through a single connection/process.

So all I really need to know is, are there strict limits to outgoing mail with either method of sending?

Thanks in advance for a knowledgeable reply.

Regards,

DW

I am now awaiting their reply.

Regards

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi DW,

Thanks for doing that, but one thing though.

So all I really need to know is, are there strict limits to outgoing mail with either method of sending?

I'm not sure that covers my questions about them allowing 'opt-out' emails being sent?  That policy was covered in detail from the follow-up I got, and it is still one that I wonder about, I should have included this in my earlier post, here's what I received from Dreamhost on that:

Also, please note that if you are utilizing bulk email in conjunction
with DreamHost services, you are required to comply in full with our
anti-spam policy. You may view it here:

   http://www.dreamhost.com/spam.html

The most important aspect of this policy is the requirement that all bulk
email be only sent to subscribers who have subscribed using an electronic
opt-in confirmation system (wherein after subscribing they are sent an
email with a link they must click on or follow before receiving any
further emails), and that those confirmations are logged with the
date/time and IP address associated with the confirmation. The policy
also has other requirements such as a clear statement to subscribers of
how the addresses will be used, a user-friendly unsubscribe system, etc.

Note that this is the most important part of that text (I believe):

wherein after subscribing they are sent an
email with a link they must click on or follow before receiving any
further emails.

Can you include a question to them on this matter as well?

[DW]

Their reply:

The only limitations I know of would be that using php you have a file transfer limit (which would effect sending of attachments) and with mail in general there is a limit of 20 recipients on a single message. Other than that it's procwatch to look out for (it will kill processes that eat up too many resources) and our spam policy (http://dreamhost.com/spam.html).

Personally, I don't recommend ever mailing purchased lists, no matter how exclusive they are (or claim to be).  You will always receive more complaints than you would if they actually subscribed at your site.

Furthermore, if you do email purchased lists I highly recommend a dedicated server, as your list(s) will likely exceed 50,000 users and a shared host will definitely not like receiving the inevitable complaints.

Regards

[BGSWebDesign]

Hi DW,

This is NOT a purchased list!  Please read more below, I've just a lost a little confidence in what you understand about promotional mailing to subscribers - it appears that you're in the business of creating software for list mailing - you should come to learn a little more about how it's used for promotion when promoting products!  

My list is from past subscribers, they have ALL personally visited my website where I collected their email, they were opted-in automatically WITH a confirmation email sent to them first, and opportunity to opt-out in every email, follow-up promotions are used to send out SAMPLES of my product so that the purchaser can make a decision on purchasing the product.  It's a low dollar product (so high numbers of subscribers required to be emailed to get a purchase).  

I nearly went broke for the first 3-4 years in my business  (taking out a second mortgage on my house to live) while I built up my subscriber base - this DID NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.  I respect my list and email to them on a conscientious and normal schedule, I have NOT had considerable complaints as you mention, in fact very few have ever complained, they simply remove themselves from the list if not interested.

Please try to put the same hat on yourself, imagine nearly going broke trying to build your list for 3 years and then have a web hosting service claim you are 'SPAMMING' people because you send out emails to your large list - HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?

Personally, I don't recommend ever mailing purchased lists, no matter how exclusive they are (or claim to be). You will always receive more complaints than you would if they actually subscribed at your site.

Furthermore, if you do email purchased lists I highly recommend a dedicated server, as your list(s) will likely exceed 50,000 users and a shared host will definitely not like receiving the inevitable complaints.

Where did this COME FROM?  Please read my post in it's ENTIRETY... I don't have a purchased list, I've been in business for 8 years (April 2005 it will b 8 years), these are ALL my contacted visitors to my website, it's NOT a purchased list...

Please don't fall into the SAME BELIEF of web hosts who think they know a difference between UCE/SPAM and subscribers collected from YEARS in business!

That's ALL of my two cents, I'm hoping for some understanding and respect in your reply.

[DW]

I apologize, I failed to consider your use of the policy and reason for posting in the first place.  Instead, I used the opportunity to enlighten others on my recommended practice with large, potentially bought, lists.  I did not intend to label you and, again, would like to apologize for the negativity it caused.

In your case, even if you don't have the 'required' information, since your list is entirely opt-in I would go ahead and send email to it.  Chances are, you won't get many, if any, complaints.  Of course, DreamHost's policy may require you to track more information, and they may reserve the right to terminate your service, but if you're straightforward about your actions and insistent about your practices and legitimacy they should be understanding in the event of a complaint.  Of course, with ListMail you can assure them that their policy will be fulfilled 100% in the future.

If you like, I can go ahead and work up a case for you and submit it to DreamHost to see what they say.  You can also do it yourself here.

Regards