Sorted Mailing Capability?

[RowdyRhodes]

Hi again Dean,

I'm trying to find out whether there is a way within LMP to mail only to selected subscribers?

Example: Let's say that I have a list of 5,000 subscribers. 1/2 male, 1/2 female, 1/4 under the age of 50 and I want to send mail only to the men and only in the age category of under 50. How can I do this?

Does LMP have that sorting capability? If not, do you, or anyone else here have any ideas on how I can accomplish this with a minimum amount of work on a weekly basis with multiple mailing requests?

The short of it is, I need to do more targeted mailings preferably using LMP since that is where our main list is located.

Thanks,
Rowdy Rhodes
Site Manager
Freelance Writing Organization - Int'l
www.fwointl.com

[DW]

This is coming in the next release, the feature is called "Rule-based sending".

[lynda.kane]

Hi Dean,

Just popped in to see if any progress on "rule based sending" (nice to have a name for it now!  and see this hot thread. We talked about this months ago and really, really, really need it now - any concrete ETA??   Love listmail and don't want to give up on it for this feature.

Happy New Year!

Lynda

[RowdyRhodes]

This is coming in the next release, the feature is called "Rule-based sending".

Thanks Dean. I hope all is well in your world. Got your email on raising finances for LMP (see my PS below).

"Rule Based Sending" in the non-internet world is called the ability to "select". Selects are options available though a mailing list supplier and/or a mailing list service that allows for a client to target their mail distribution, just the same as the term "Rule Based Sending" does.

I now have a broker who has taken on our list (we supply the service so the list is never sold or rented or out of our hands) and although for the moment they are willing to represent the list without the select ability, I know that this limitation will seriously cripple our abilities to market the list.

How much would it cost to have us hire you to customize our system so we have the select capability now as opposed to waiting for the next release?

What I mean is, if there are two of us (me and lynda.kane) waiting on it  so we can achieve additional financial gain (and there must be more than just us two), how much would it cost any interested parties to team up and pay you to make this happen sooner rather than later?

The ability to perform selects is not only a feature that can be used by third party rentals, it can also be used by us as mailing list managers to offers specials to select groups of individuals within our list (such as a special offerings to our oldest members, or offerings only to members in California, or even just to members in Australia). The select option is something that adds a lot of weight to LMP. I'm really interested in knowing when we will have this functionality.

Thanks,
Rowdy Rhodes
PS I sent you a private email a few days back about your need for finances and advertising and made you an offer. Haven't heard back. Please respond there as well. Take care. RR

[DW]

Thanks for your input on this Rowdy.  I have been looking for a better way to describe/name the feature for buttons, the interface, etc.

"Select", eh?  Hmm.  Here is how the buttons look so far:

[ List Settings ]
[ Followups ]
[ Rulesets / Sub-lists ]

I would really like to rename the Rulesets / Sub-lists button, but what to call it?  I can't very well call it "Group Mail" since this is another form of newsletter.  It could be called "Selective Sending" or "Select Groups" or "User Selection".  Nothing seems right..  :?  I like "Rulesets" the best, but it does not make it immediately clear what the feature does.

The feature is practically finished aside from rigorous testing, but there are other enhancements to the program I would like to get in before I release.  I am working harder than ever to get this thing suped-up and out there.  Is there any way you can survive another 2 weeks or so?

[RowdyRhodes]

It could be called "Selective Sending" or "Select Groups" or "User Selection". Nothing seems right..  I like "Rulesets" the best, but it is not make it immediately clear what the feature does.

 
Too computerish. That's why it doesn't seem right. You need more of an industry term for the function so that it is clear to experienced mailing list managers and will properly educate the neophytes. "Selects" is the term you're looking for from the postal mailing list world.

I have been looking for a better way to describe/name the feature for buttons, the interface, etc.

I'd go with just the word "Selects" then have a little "?" popup help thingy to explain that: "Selects is the ability to extract from a list selected subscribers based upon specific criteria, such as city, postal code, country, or city AND country, age AND gender, etc. Any fields and/or groupings of fields of data that are collected during the signup process can be used to select subscribers to create a partial mailing list and then send mail to that selected list at a future point in time."

Feel free to quote me on that. That is how it is termed and used in the "real world" of mailing lists.

I am working harder than ever to get this thing suped-up and out there.  Is there any way you can survive another 2 weeks or so?

Not a problem Dean. We don't expect our brokers to kick into high gear on our list for another month. Besides which they have already been told that selects are not an option with LMP. It's rent the whole list or nothing at all. If and when this functionality is in place, then I will inform the broker that we have the ability to offer selects and they will add it to our service data card and establish additional pricing on same.

Like I said, my two cents is go with a single button that says "Selects", with a helpful little popup "?" mark and then make sure the select options screen has the ability to perform single select, plus AND/OR selects on all fields in the subscriber database. The more flexibility in there the greater the value to the package and to your/my clients.

As an example, I can charge a lot more if I can offer selects based upon city, country, age, gender, occupation and income, than I can upon just age and gender.

All fields should be searachable, selectable, extractable into a temporary mailing list that is saved somewhere and then I have the ability to run a mailing against that selection to ensure targeted mailings. Also, you should include the functionality to save that selection to download in an ASCII delimited file of some kind. Sort of like the way your backup works. The reason why is that we choose to not release our list to mailing services, however some operations will rent a list and want to perform the mailing themselves so in cases like that your client will need the ability to download the selection and then transfer it to the mailer/client.

Notwithstanding my own mailings (example: I would love to be able to do special mailings of Canadian events to just our Canadian subscribers, etc.), the future clients' mailings will want the same opportunity to be able to send mail through our system to their target market.

Putting this into effect would be a major new feature for LMP. I believe it'll really put your product out there with the big time professional mailing list packages. If you need more suggestions, help, whatever, please do not hesitate to ask. You've always been there for us. We're here for you. And don't forget RegSoft!   I want to sell this package along with a few select others being lined up as bundles that we have the rights to resell.

Sincerely,
Rowdy Rhodes
Site Manager
Freelance Writing Organization - Int'l
www.fwointl.com

[DW]

I'm all for renaming the feature but I need something solid.  As it stands, I feel "User Selection" is a good name for it.  "User Selects" or just "Selects" would be ok.  The word "Select" is causing problems for me, though.  Consider this.  When sending an email, the program asks which list or "select" to target.  So, we say "Target List or Selection" ?  I feel the word "Selection" is better than "Select".  What about "User Groups"?  This could let us say "Target List or Group"...  No, "Selection" is starting to sound really nice..  What do you think?  What about the button on the main left-menu? "User Select", "Selects", "User Selection"?  I expect it to be placed under the "User Database" button.

I'm doing a lot with these "Selects".   You will be able to send email, export, perform mass changes, etc.

I have an idea that will allow me to get some new features out to you sooner.  I may release a "beta"  (v1.79?) and have that available in the member area along with the main distribution.  I will likely do this soon,  after I fix and finish a few things.

Thanks a lot for your input, Rowdy!

[RowdyRhodes]

I feel "User Selection" is a good name for it.  "User Selects" or just "Selects" would be ok.

Sorry Dean. Just mis-wording on my part. I missed an "s" along the way. The mailing list industry term for the ability to select from demographical and/or subscriber information is generically termed "Selects". ie. A potential client might ask me the question "Do you offer selects? If so, based upon what criteria?"

If I offer selects, then an example of what you might see on my mailing list data card is as follows:

"Selects are available based upon:

- telephone number
- city
- state
- zip
- age
- gender
- occupation"

"Combination and multiple selects using the above information is also available" <--- Please note this. It is important in the softare functionality to be able to combine selection criteria.

The word "Select" is causing problems for me, though.  Consider this.  When sending an email, the program asks which list or "select" to target.  So, we say "Target List or Selection" ?  I feel the word "Selection" is better than "Select".  What about "User Groups"?  This could let us say "Target List or Group"...  No, "Selection" is starting to sound really nice..  What do you think?

 

Now what you're talking about is the wording to be used within the program so first off, you are correct - stay away from the word groups ... I'll use me as an example. I have 5 lists - no "groups". Let's look at the steps I take when sending mail. They are as follows:

click "Send mail"
choose list
input mail piece
send

If I had to choose a way to make it easier to understand. I would set it up so that I:
click "Send mail"
a different screen comes up (if I have more than one list) that says "Choose List"
THEN the screen for inputing the mail piece shows up and I put in the text and/or HTML mail
then send

NOTE: If there are multiple lists, all the lists should show up including any lists that have been created based upon selection (see below)

Thinking along those lines there is no need to change any wording in the software per se. You'll just be adding options in the way of available lists for us to use.

What about the button on the main left-menu? "User Select", "Selects", "User Selection"?

I'm assuming what you mean is a button on the left to create selected type lists? If so, then I would just name the button "Create Selects List" or "Create Custom List".

Clicking that would bring up a list of the main lists available. In my case there would be 5 lists to choose from. Choosing a main list would bring up all of the different fields that I have set in the configuration of the list I have chosen.

Example: List1, City, State, Country, Postal, Age, etc. (I believe the software has 10 or 12 fields? I use them all in List1. In List2 I only use first name, last name and email address)

Anyway, with this information showing I would then need the ability to put in the options for those fields.

Example: Let's choose Age and State from List1

Age (beside this option would be a range input 0-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, etc., and I would need to be able to select single and multiple groupings of the age ranges --- 21-50 let's say or just a single range 21-30)

State (beside this option would be a list of states, provinces, etc., again offering me the ability to choose one or more of these sub-selects to determine what will be the output generated --- let's say Utah, New York, Ontario, British Columbia)

After making my different choices there would need to be a button that says "Create New List". Click that and a name option would appear so I could name the list (21-50, Utah, NY, Ont, B.C.) and then create the list. It would be stored on the system as a sub-list to the main list chosen in our example - List1, ready for use and would show up in the list of lists above for mailing options.

I expect it to be placed under the "User Database" button.

Hmmmm. You don't do that now with the lists. Why change the layout of the system? It should be a list like any of the other lists except that it is a sublist to the master lists it was created from, not in the user database area.

Like I said, I have 5 lists. They would still show up where they show up now. Users would show up the same as well as all other configuration information. It is all specifically associated with the 5 main lists, each of which have different names, different users and different configurations.

If a list is created as in the above, then wouldn't it be easier for the user to have the lists sub-categorized?

Example of 5 lists and associated created selects lists:
List1
- (21-50, Utah, NY, Ont, B.C.)
- (21-50, U.S.A.)
- (21-50, Canada)
List2
- (41-50, Alberta)
List3
- (New York)
List4
List5

By clicking on List1 (21-50, Canada) and THEN going to the user database, the only user names showing up over there would fit within the chosen list criteria. That way it would also mean that the configurations, global commands and links, tracking, etc., would all still be contained under the 'umbrella' of the main list, thereby saving us from having to create new configurations, passwords, bounce criteria, etc., every time we created a selectable list. It would also make it easy to just click Export Users at that point and download the selected list, just the way it is done now.

I hope I'm making some sense to you with all of this. I'm getting a little lost myself!  Whew! :shock:

I'm doing a lot with these "Selects".  You will be able to send email, export, perform mass changes, etc.

Sounds like it's going to be great. I know I really appreciate the effort and I'm sure others reading this do as well. The two main things to remember are 1. the ability to select, create and export (for LMP owners who release, rent or sell their lists to others) and 2. the ability to select, create and send mail (for LMP owners who do not release, but do rent their list and provide a sending service to the client) are the two main priorities.

I have an idea that will allow me to get some new features out to you sooner.  I may release a "beta"  (v1.79?) and have that available in the member area along with the main distribution.  I will likely do this soon,  after I fix and finish a few things.

Sounds good. Between you, me and anyone else reading in on this conversation, beta makes me shiver in apprehension. I'm not a good tester of software. I tend to get extremely frustrated when things go wrong. I'm more an idea man or a hands on programmer of my own 'stuff'. For you though, you never know. I might just brave the waters one more time    But please don't be surprised or offended if I decide not to go for a swim. It will all depend on what is happening at the time in my world of development, creation and fire control.  :lol:

Thanks a lot for your input, Rowdy!

Any time Dean. I'd rather spend lots of time in discussion to help you make sure that you end up with some really heavy hitting LMP functionality than to wait and see what shows up and then realize that it's not going to work for my business application(s). For those who are not sending in their two cents worth of thought, support and encouragement, then they get what they get and adapt accordingly I guess.

If you want more, just fire back and I'll jump right back in. More than happy to help out. After all, you've been there many times for me in the past. It's the least I can do for the future.

Take care,
Rowdy Rhodes
Site Manager
Freelance Writing Organization - Int'l
www.fwointl.com

[DW]

I wasn't planning on creating a new list for each selection. They were to become "virtual" selections, which could span across multiple lists, etc.  They would be exportable and maybe even (soon) browsable in the User Database.

I like the idea of being able to create a new list out of selections.  Perhaps this could be an additional option.  You could create a list either by copying or moving users.

I like your idea about sub-categorizing created lists.  That looks really sharp.  I will see if I can work it in that way.

Ranges are not currently part of the mostly-completed feature.   It would be fairly easy to implement considering the AND/OR functionality.  Instead of putting a ranges option, I could simply allow you to match fields GREATER THAN or LESS THAN a certain value.  You could then use a single AND statement (with 2 rules) to restrict your selection to a range.  (ie: Age greater than or equal to 20 AND lower than or equal to 30)  The search function could simply be expanded to include ">", "<", ">=", "<=" as well as the current "Exact", and "Any" options.

Considering the default nature of selections, which will be NOT to create a list but simply a 'virtual' selection, the button should not be named to include "Create".   So, IMHO, I believe "User Selection", or "User Selects" would be best for the button.

[RowdyRhodes]

Hi Dean. Sorry it took so long to reply. Was tied up with "stuff".

I wasn't planning on creating a new list for each selection. They were to become "virtual" selections, which could span across multiple lists, etc.  They would be exportable and maybe even (soon) browsable in the User Database.

I didn't realize that you were going virtual. The only downsides I can see to having only that option would be:

- repetitive work (ie many of the renters of the list and/or mailing service will ask for the same thing -- example "only the U.S.") so it would mean that each time it was requested the function would have to be re-run.

(This in itself is not a bad idea. Just that if I get multiple orders I have to perform the work over and over, instead of just referencing the latest (example) U.S. list)

- If the list is virtual and there is any type of disconnect, error, failure, etc., it means I have to re-run the selects all over again???

I like the idea of being able to create a new list out of selections.  Perhaps this could be an additional option.  You could create  a list either by copying or moving users. I like your idea about sub-categorizing created lists.  That looks really sharp.  I will see if I can work it in that way.

This is actually what happens in the mailing list world. A list is created based upon the client's needs. The list is then "seeded" with a couple of addresses that are monitored by the list seller/renter. (example: If you rented a list for single use only, the renter would create an email account specifically for your list and then monitor it for 6 months or a year. There should only be one piece of mail from you ending up in that account otherwise you are breaching the one time use rental agreement.) Each list created is named after the client once it has been used and then stored. A virtual list is ok for quick emails to selected users by the list owner, but it would be best to have LMP create lists that can be added to (seeded), edited, downloaded, browsed, tracked and counted.

I'm kind of confused as to how I would use a virtual list. You're not thinking that we create a list, download it, add our seeded email addresses, and then upload it to the system in order to mail through it are you? I can understand downloading if the renter is sending the list out to the client to use, but many system operators (myself included) do not let go of our lsists. We provide the service to deliver the client's message to the list.

Ranges are not currently part of the mostly-completed feature.   It would be fairly easy to implement considering the AND/OR functionality.  Instead of putting a ranges option, I could simply allow you to match fields GREATER THAN or LESS THAN a certain value.  You could then use a single AND statement (with 2 rules) to restrict your selection to a range.  (ie: Age greater than or equal to 20 AND lower than or equal to 30)  The search function could simply be expanded to include ">", "<", ">=", "<=" as well as the current "Exact", and "Any" options.

As much flexibility as you can Dean.

I'm not sure what you mean by two rules only but what should be there is the ability to extract (select) on all fields. Take a look at my signup form: http://fwointl.com/FWOSignup.html

I have all fields as potential sorts and would hope that I can mix and match my extraction/selection options to fit all available fields. The problem as I see it on your side is how do you determine whether a field that I have created using the available LMP blank fields is numeric or text? Anyway, as I said above -- as much flexibility as you can offer would be the best. So, as an example in my case, I might need to extract based upon:
- age range,
- gender,
- country,
- income and
- what kind of email they can accept (HTML?)

all for one client. The client can conceivably ask for 30-40 yr olds, female, Canada, $25,000.00+, HTML and it would be good to be able to say that I can supply them with that.

Considering the default nature of selections, which will be NOT to create a list but simply a 'virtual' selection, the button should not be named to include "Create".   So, IMHO, I believe "User Selection", or "User Selects" would be best for the button.

Whatever you name it, we'll learn it, get used to it, read about it in the manual and bug you about it  :lol:

Please consider having the extracted list(s) created as both a virtual and as a file securely stored on the site with the option to delete the file after use. Security is obviously of great import when lists are created, used and stored on a system. To date (crossed fingers, knocked wood) LMP offers great secure database setup, so as long as the lists were created by LMP within the SQL database they would be secure. Flat ASCII, excel, etc., formats would be a risk to use and/or leave on the system.

Keep plugging my friend. You're on the right track.

Take care,
Rowdy Rhodes
Site Manager
Freelance Writing Organization - Int'l
www.fwointl.com