Author Topic: The Best Host for ListMail???  (Read 5720 times)

don1

  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
The Best Host for ListMail???
« on: March 05, 2006, 09:42:09 am »
Hi Everyone,

At this point what hosting company seems to be the best fit for ListMail.  "My list" at this time does NOT exceed 2000 users...But I want to be ready as the user list grows. These are the main factors that I am determining my decision on:

1) Reliability
2) Price
3) Email Limit Per Hour
4) Email Limit Per 24hour period

Anybody want to add anything or have any suggestions...

Thanks,

Don

DW

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3787
    • View Profile
    • https://legacy.listmailpro.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 04:47:26 am »
Don,

I haven't found a large reliable and reputable host that is willing to send bulk email.  What may be best is to get your own managed or unmanaged dedicated 'root' server such as from 1&1.  Your own server has the added benefit of being able to host unlimited domains of your own and also run web sites for your family, friends, or clients.  I do accept a number of clients for hosting on a few of my own dedicated servers, but haven't come up with a solid pricing policy yet.  Generally I'll let you email up to 25,000 users once or even twice per day for $15/mo.  100,000 with the same restrictions I would do for $30.  I come up with these figures every time I talk about it... right now I'm not really serious about public hosting, but let me know if you need me. ;)

Regards, DW
Dean Wiebe
ListMailPRO Author & Developer - Help | Support | Hosting

don1

  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2006, 07:30:33 am »
Has anyone tried this company for ListMail?
http://www.fastmail.fm/

Look at the the "Enhanced" package, would this work for ListMail?  I am not sure...what do you think?  Any feedback?

Thanks!

~Don

BGSWebDesign

  • Posts: 625
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bgswebdesign.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2006, 08:47:43 am »
Hi DW,

Quote
Generally I'll let you email up to 25,000 users once or even twice per day for $15/mo. 100,000 with the same restrictions I would do for $30


This still has me intrigued, can you please tell me a little more about your services with this, I have 250,000 subscribers (the zipped mysql dump is 14MB, I backup every night so need space for that) I need space for storing the raw Mysql database which is quite large, and ability to email up to 100,000/day...

One thing I wonder about the most - I'm looking for some real 'benchmark numbers'?  How fast are your mailings?  As you know I have to use 'throttled mailing' because I found if I did not it reduced the number of emails delivered AND it reduced the ability of the user to Unsubscribe using the standard LMP unsub links...

How fast could I email 25,000 subscribers?  And, if it is unthrottled, have you done testing to make sure the same number of Subscribers receive their email properly?  How are you able to maintain such large numbers on your own server - is this your own box, or are you reseller?  I know that you may not want to answer that - but if I'm looking for reliablity, speed, and price - I need to have some numbers to compare to.... for example how would running with you compare to running my own server (or letting you manage one) at 1&1?  

Also, what about checking things like MX issues, see my last post about the problems I just discovered with Yahoo subscribers not receiving their email because of 'an MX issue'!  I need to know if that is watched regularly, or if the mail server is reset often, and how frequently, etc, etc....

Thanks for your answers....

Don:
Quote
Has anyone tried this company for ListMail?
http://www.fastmail.fm/


That may work for you, but it won't for me, as the limit on emails/hour is only 2,000, with large lists - that would take FOREVER....

The pricing is amazing though, but that always leaves me suspect too... such as how frequently they watch the servers?  24 hours, or just during business hours?
Thanks,
-Brett
http://www.bgswebdesign.com/Contact-Us.php

*** I do custom List Mail Pro installations ***
Contact me through my website (above)

don1

  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2006, 11:01:37 am »
Brett,

I know this host wouldn't work for a lot of people such as yourself...in fact I may be starting a different company which I will need more "capacity"...but for the time, I just need reliability for a few thousand emails a day at most.

I am curious how DW will answer your questions.  If DW's servers are tuned to work with ListMail (is what I suspect) than just for the sake of simplicity, his service would seem great.  And any issues that may arise could be easily looked at by him personally :-).

Thanks for the reply!

~Don

BGSWebDesign

  • Posts: 625
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bgswebdesign.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 07:55:20 am »
Hi Don,

Quote
I know this host wouldn't work for a lot of people such as yourself...in fact I may be starting a different company which I will need more "capacity"...but for the time, I just need reliability for a few thousand emails a day at most.


Yes, you're right this is an excellent opportunity for someone only wanting to run a few thousand subscribers - does it work though?  Maybe you should be the 'guinea pig' and try it out - report back what you find... ok?

Quote
I am curious how DW will answer your questions.


I am too - DW where are you on the answers?  I'm considering it... though I'm also looking at some other alternative options...
Thanks,
-Brett
http://www.bgswebdesign.com/Contact-Us.php

*** I do custom List Mail Pro installations ***
Contact me through my website (above)

DW

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3787
    • View Profile
    • https://legacy.listmailpro.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 11:09:34 am »
Hi guys,

Brett, unfortunately I can't accomodate a list of 250,000 at this time.  My most recent server is too full for this.  Also, my multiple-IP patch provider has quadrupled his prices, so I don't know where I am with that (for a new server).  I will likely be trying to develop my own patch for Plesk/qmail for this (I'm working on it) I would (have) likely charge(d) ~$45/mo for 200,000 emails per day.

In light of the multiple IP patch issue I don't know when I will be ready to offer large-scale hosting again.. :(

Quote
One thing I wonder about the most - I'm looking for some real 'benchmark numbers'? How fast are your mailings? How fast could I email 25,000 subscribers? And, if it is unthrottled, have you done testing to make sure the same number of Subscribers receive their email properly?

Not really... I suspect what might be happening to you is temporary or speed-based blocking is getting in the way.  Furthermore, the remove issues were I believe caused by the "optimize table" statements I was using in rem.php which have since been removed.  If you continue to have troubles with remove when not throttling it might indicate a problem with the DB structure or just too much load for the server.
Quote
How are you able to maintain such large numbers on your own server - is this your own box, or are you reseller?

I get all my servers (and domains) from 1&1 now.  They have cheap prices and excellent services.
Quote
how would running with you compare to running my own server (or letting you manage one) at 1&1?

With me you benefit with price and the fact that you don't have to monitor and manage your own server.  The main drawback is that it is a shared server, with other clients sending email from the same IP address(es).  Running your own server lets you set up unlimited domains and puts you in full control of your IP address and, hence, any blocking / complaints that happen against your server will only be caused by your mailings and not other users'.

Quote
Also, what about checking things like MX issues, see my last post about the problems I just discovered with Yahoo subscribers not receiving their email because of 'an MX issue'! I need to know if that is watched regularly, or if the mail server is reset often, and how frequently, etc, etc....

I generally look at the server within a few hours when/if clients report troubles or sooner if I am notified by cell phone (when any server services go down).

----

Don, if you will be emailing just a few thousand per day I might again be able to recommend DreamHost.  While a number of my clients have been 'shut down without warning' because they emailed tens of thousands of users per day, some have been reinstated with higher per-day email limits up to several thousand.  Their policy is that all users must have "double opted-in".   I recommend contacting their tech support to see if you can get an account that will accomodate your list(s).  I could also offer hosting for a reduced rate of about $10/mo for such a list.

Regards, DW
Dean Wiebe
ListMailPRO Author & Developer - Help | Support | Hosting

don1

  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 03:15:31 pm »
Quote
Don, if you will be emailing just a few thousand per day I might again be able to recommend DreamHost. While a number of my clients have been 'shut down without warning' because they emailed tens of thousands of users per day, some have been reinstated with higher per-day email limits up to several thousand. Their policy is that all users must have "double opted-in". I recommend contacting their tech support to see if you can get an account that will accomodate your list(s). I could also offer hosting for a reduced rate of about $10/mo for such a list.


Dean,

Since I already use DreamHost, I will try moving "ListMail" to them and see what my results are.  I will keep you up to date with the results.

Thanks,

Don

BGSWebDesign

  • Posts: 625
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bgswebdesign.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2006, 08:16:22 am »
Hi DW, Don,

Quote
With me you benefit with price and the fact that you don't have to monitor and manage your own server. The main drawback is that it is a shared server, with other clients sending email from the same IP address(es). Running your own server lets you set up unlimited domains and puts you in full control of your IP address and, hence, any blocking / complaints that happen against your server will only be caused by your mailings and not other users'


Please let me know how much you would charge to setup LMP on a server at 1&1 if I bought my own server there?  

Here's what I'm looking at, is that server configured when you get it?  Is PHP, Perl, MySQL and other tools available on the server?

I have very specific needs, Perl, PHP, MySQL, etc... and need to be able to run them the way I want... so I'm asking - DOES 1&1 already set that all up for you - or is the user responsible for it?  If the user is, I'm asking how much you would charge DW to set it up??  

Also, I want to know one thing-  
Quote
Not really... I suspect what might be happening to you is temporary or speed-based blocking is getting in the way. Furthermore, the remove issues were I believe caused by the "optimize table" statements I was using in rem.php which have since been removed. If you continue to have troubles with remove when not throttling it might indicate a problem with the DB structure or just too much load for the server


Most likely it's the load on the server, I removed the "optimize table" command myself and it still had problems...

SO - tell me this, HOW MANY Emails per HOUR could I send using LMP on my own server at 1&1 if I was the only user of that server?  20,000 or 30,000/hour?    

AND, if that's the case, what is the reliability of the BOUNCE and LINK Tracking with that many emails - this is what I found with my Throttle testing, I had to leave it in so 1.) People could get their email, and 2.) so that users clicking on links in the Email would get a responsive server - in other words IF YOU SEND OUT 30,000 Emails/hour, what's that 500/minute = 8.33/second!  Do you see how that many emails being sent would hinder/slow down LMP on the Server end, if 10 people clicked at the SAME SECOND - it would NOT be able to handle those clicks... but having throttling in place allows it...

So, my question then, HOW do other email servers handle it, the big names, do they have HUGE, HUGE server power, I suspect they do... and without that, I can't see LMP handling the load, even with 20,000-30,000 an hour, that is why I suggest throttling be used, and that you put it in the Config section of LMP - let the user turn it off/on if they want, but put it in there...

Don:
Quote
Since I already use DreamHost, I will try moving "ListMail" to them and see what my results are. I will keep you up to date with the results.


Let us know what you find... I'm curious...
Thanks,
-Brett
http://www.bgswebdesign.com/Contact-Us.php

*** I do custom List Mail Pro installations ***
Contact me through my website (above)

mike2

  • Posts: 193
    • View Profile
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2006, 12:30:57 pm »
I use two machines for this and have no problems....   The SMTP server is all by itself, then you have the Web Server running MySQL and handling all incoming mail including the bounce.cgi, etc....

The load on the web server while mailing to my list of 150K stays at around 1-2, which is nothing.... the load on the mail server varies from 5-10 or so, which still isn't a whole lot....

I average 40-60K per hour...

I'd say all could be handled on one HIGH END machine with no problems as long as they are configured properly.  What I notice that affects it most is all the incoming connections for mail.  I set Sendmail to limit this and it's no problem....  dunno if qmail can limit incoming connections, proly can I'd think.

DW

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3787
    • View Profile
    • https://legacy.listmailpro.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2006, 03:09:07 am »
The multiple IP patch guy has quadrupled his prices and therefore I'm seeking another solution for my next server and am unable to offer hosting for large lists (>~5000) at this time.  Of course, some of my clients send hundreds of thousands of emails from a single IP with fair success... but I would really like to provide IP rotation on my servers. I'm going to try to develop a patch or accomplish it with an existing one before getting my next server.

I set up Plesk/1&1 servers with backup, multiple IP (well, I used to and hope to be able to again soon), email/MySQL optimization and more for $300, with ongoing management (security patches, monitoring with cell phone notification, dealing with problems, server additions, etc) for $35/mo.

1&1 servers come with Plesk (demo at plesk.com)  which is relatively easy to manage if you have some Linux experience or a passion to learn.  There are many Plesk-related forums available such as at http://forum.swsoft.com or http://forum.ev1servers.net.  I would also be willing to help out from time to time via this forum to further my own understanding.
Quote
I have very specific needs, Perl, PHP, MySQL, etc... and need to be able to run them the way I want...

On a dedicated server you can do anything you want.  Plesk comes with a lot of bells an whistles... It's really easy to add sites to the server, set up FTP, email accounts, databases. etc. MySQL, PHP, Perl, etc. is all there by default and works for the majority of available scripts.
Quote
DOES 1&1 already set that all up for you - or is the user responsible for it?

On managed servers 1&1 will help you with anything you need.  They will perform security updates, modifications/optimization as necessary, etc. but I'm not sure about a daily backup script.  On unmanaged servers you are the administrator and are fully responsible for keeping it running.  If the hard drive explodes you are responsbile for restoring the server from a backup.  If you happen to accidentally run a command which deletes every file on the server (rm -rf /*) you will suffer the consequences and again have to restore or reset the server.  1&1 provides a number of useful services such as automated server re-image (base install) and booting into a rescue system (like booting from a floppy disk) should your server become unbootable so you can fix the problem or at least recover your most recent data.  The first few times I had to restore servers it was a huge learning experience and took me 6 hours or more... now I've got it down to about an hour.
Quote
SO - tell me this, HOW MANY Emails per HOUR could I send using LMP on my own server at 1&1 if I was the only user of that server? 20,000 or 30,000/hour?

I estimate about 750,000 per day with the optimizations mentioned in this forum.  That equates to 31250/hr.
Quote
if 10 people clicked at the SAME SECOND - it would NOT be able to handle those clicks... but having throttling in place allows it...

I guess it depends on the server.  I would think that most servers have a default web and/or MySQL connection limit of 255.  I ran out of MySQL connections when I posted a hot article on my blog (2 Users Online ∙ Most ever was 263 on 18th June 2006, 18:16) but increased the connection limit (and traffic has gone down..) and haven't had a problem since.

You should only have problems if your server reaches such a limit.  Therefore I would say your existing server is probably hosting a lot of, maybe too many, high-traffic web sites.
Dean Wiebe
ListMailPRO Author & Developer - Help | Support | Hosting

BGSWebDesign

  • Posts: 625
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bgswebdesign.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2006, 05:25:05 am »
Hi DW,

Thanks for the info, I'll consider the dedicated server, most likely I would go for Managed as it's only $20/month more, but I would for sure want you to set it up...

Regarding this:
Quote
guess it depends on the server. I would think that most servers have a default web and/or MySQL connection limit of 255. I ran out of MySQL connections when I posted a hot article on my blog


Are you referring to shared servers?  I guess you mean that with dedicated you can increase the limits to a higher level - allowing much more traffic, is that right?

That is probably why I have to throttle, with the shared server handling all of the traffic, there's bound to be slowdowns/bottlenecks.

Quote
but I would really like to provide IP rotation on my servers. I'm going to try to develop a patch or accomplish it with an existing one before getting my next server.


Couldn't you hire someone on Elance to write that patch for you? Really quadrupled, well there must be a market there for it?

Keep up what you're doing... let us all know if you are able to offer hosting for largers lists.
Thanks,
-Brett
http://www.bgswebdesign.com/Contact-Us.php

*** I do custom List Mail Pro installations ***
Contact me through my website (above)

DW

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3787
    • View Profile
    • https://legacy.listmailpro.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 02:02:36 am »
Brett,
Quote
Thanks for the info, I'll consider the dedicated server, most likely I would go for Managed as it's only $20/month more, but I would for sure want you to set it up...

That's the thing.  I don't think you get direct access to the server when you go with managed, but I may be wrong.  If you don't get access all I can do is recommend qmail and MySQL optimization, which you can forward to 1&1 tech support/server management.

Quote
I guess you mean that with dedicated you can increase the limits to a higher level - allowing much more traffic, is that right?

I don't have a lot of experience with high-traffic sites so I don't know the upper connection limits for apache (web server) or MySQLd (mysql server).

For MySQL, depending on the server's version, you'd enter something like this in /etc/my.cnf:
Code: [Select]
set-variable=max_connections=500
For apache you'd enter something like this in /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf
Code: [Select]
# MaxClients: maximum number of server processes allowed to start
MaxClients       256

Quote
That is probably why I have to throttle, with the shared server handling all of the traffic, there's bound to be slowdowns/bottlenecks.

Depending on the host they could be placing too many users on single server.  As learned by my recent experience, even a single high-traffic site can monopolize an entire server's worth of connections.  With your very large amount of email, and considering your experience on that host/server so far, I think your own dedicated server or requesting placement on a less-busy server at your web host would be the best way to go.

Will try to remember to update this thread when I finally get my next server up and can again accept large clients!

Regards
Dean Wiebe
ListMailPRO Author & Developer - Help | Support | Hosting

BGSWebDesign

  • Posts: 625
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bgswebdesign.com
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 01:49:31 pm »
Hi DW,

Ok, I knew 1&1 had to be expensive (they're blowing all that money on advertising), check this dedicated server:
http://www.serverpronto.com

Also, it mentions cPanel, I'm familiar with Plesk, is this the same thing, and IS it really required to run a simple LMP hosted mailer?  I kind of think I could do without it, once I'm setup and running, I don't need a Control Panel, all I'm going to do is login and check a few files (FTP), and maybe adjust CRONTAB (can do that from command line)...  

What do you think?   Anyone?
Thanks,
-Brett
http://www.bgswebdesign.com/Contact-Us.php

*** I do custom List Mail Pro installations ***
Contact me through my website (above)

mike2

  • Posts: 193
    • View Profile
The Best Host for ListMail???
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2006, 09:40:40 am »
I don't know about these people, I'd say try it and see how it works for you.

As for control panels, LOL... I've NEVER used any kind of control panel... NEVER EVER!!!!

I run my own linux servers on my own T-1 line and I simply SSH into the box and do what ever I need to...  

Control panels are kind of nice though, don't get me wrong.  For the normal user I'd say they are probably wonderful, but personally, i'd rather just log in and do what I need to....